RE: tar for NFS V4

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From: Skardal, Harald (Harald.Skardal@netapp.com)
Date: 05/31/02-02:06:29 PM Z


Message-ID: <B4353D108FA4D4118C3A00D0B782A45802FFC669@ussvlexc07.corp.netapp.com>
From: "Skardal, Harald" <Harald.Skardal@netapp.com>
Subject: RE: tar for NFS V4
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:06:29 -0700

Resent to this mailing list since it bounced earlier according
to Spencer.

    Harald

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Skardal, Harald 
    Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:38 AM
    To: 'Gordon Waidhofer'; Harris, Guy
    Cc: Eric Kadison; nfsv4-wg@sunroof.eng.sun.com; ndmp-tech@netapp.com
    Subject: RE: tar for NFS V4
    
    
    All,
    
    Just as the the NFSv4 community is going outside its
    traditional scope and getting interested in file system
    migration, I think the NDMP cmmunity have to take a step outside
    our traditional turf and consider seriously the task 
    of backing up date with richer metadata, such as NFSv4, 
    NTFS etc. I can not say what the right approach is
    (tar+ vs new utility), but in order to push NDMP along
    we need to make sure that the right underlying tools exists
    such that use of NDMP can be expanded.
    
    There are numerous new technologies available now that might
    help, as compared to when tar was conceived. I would think 
    that XML could be used, either to construct one DTD for
    the superset of all possible file system attributes, or 
    a format where the DTD was included such that all metadata
    encoded in the "tar+" file bu the originating file system 
    could be decoded. 
    Translation into a different file system is a different issue, 
    in some cases attributes may not be translatable. To me, the 
    most important thing here is to be able to store the meaning 
    of the attributes in the source file system with the actual 
    encoded attributes and the data.
    
    I could see this being a "joint venture" between NDMP and NFS,
    and possibly others. (WebDAV?). It seems as if there are 
    two deliverables, a data format specification, and an open
    source implementation for Linux.
    
    First question: What is the general interest level in the NFSv4
    group and in the NDMP collaborative in solving this problem 
    together?
    
    Cheers,
    
               Harald 
    
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Gordon Waidhofer [mailto:gww@traakan.com]
        Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:33 PM
        To: Guy Harris
        Cc: Eric Kadison; nfsv4-wg@sunroof.eng.sun.com; 
    ndmp-tech@netapp.com
        Subject: Re: tar for NFS V4
        
        
        
        The question of enhancing the tar format for new attributes
        appeared on the NDMP (Network Data Movement Protocol,
        ndmp-tech@ndmp.org)
        mail list some time ago. The scope of the question is 
    broader than
        NFSv4. For example, NTFS and MacOS file models have 
    many attributes
        that tar wouldn't know from a hole in the ground :)
        
        Perhaps something akin the Rock Ridge (CD-ROM file system)
        tagged attributes would do the trick. Perhaps leave tar
        alone and do something new. Perhaps.....
        
        Clearly the backup format question is outside the scope of 
        NFSv4 work.
        So too beyond the strict scope of NDMP. Yet participants in
        both these efforts will surely have interest in backup formats,
        file attributes, interoperability/exchangability, and so on.
        There is a worthwhile overlap. Hopefully the day will come
        when we can all take up this issue.
        
        But not today......
        
        Regards,
        	-gww
        
        Guy Harris wrote:
        > 
        > On Thu, May 30, 2002 at 03:21:10PM -0700, Eric Kadison wrote:
        > > Has anyone looked into updating the tar program to 
        support new NFS V4
        > > features (e.g. the new attributes)?
        > 
        > "tar" wouldn't know NFS from a hole in the ground.
        > 
        > If there are APIs in the OSes on which "tar" runs that allow
        > applications such as "tar" access to those features, the 
        "tar" that
        > comes with those OSes might be updated to use those APIs.
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